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Ancestors of Elizabeth Say
Generation No. 1
1.
Elizabeth Say, born August 27, 1816
in Pennsylvania1; died October 18, 1853 in Richland Township,
Venango County, Pennsylvania. She was the daughter of 2. James Reed Say, Sr.
and 3. Elsie Chesney. She married (1) George Bell September 27,
1838. He was born December 20, 1811 in Pennsylvania1, and died
April 12, 1896 in Richland Township, Venango County, Pennsylvania. He was the
son of John Barnett Bell and Ann Downing.
Notes for Elizabeth Say:
Elizabeth died 63 days after giving birth to Finley Bell, who also soon died.
More About Elizabeth Say:
Burial: 1853, Nickleville Cemetery, Richland Township, Venango County,
Pennsylvania
Notes for George Bell:
George and Betsy had a total of two daughters and six sons. One son was
killed in the battle of Gettysburg.
The 1860 Pennsylvania census records George, age 49, residing in Richland
Township, Venango County, working as a farmer, with real estate valued at $400
and personal property valued at $150. Residing with him are Jane (Elizabeth
Jane) age 18, George, age 13, David, age 10, Samuel, age 9. Also residing with
him are two individuals, one, name illegible, age 17, farmer, and the second
"Barnhart", age 14.
In August 1882, George applied for a pension for his son James, who
had died at Gettysburg in 1863.
More About George Bell:
Burial: 1896, Nickleville Cemetery, Richland Township, Venango County,
Pennsylvania
More About George Bell and Elizabeth Say:
Marriage: September 27, 1838
Generation No. 2
2. James Reed Say, Sr., born 1780 in Kishocoquillas Valley,
Cumberland/Mifflin County, Pennsylvania; died June 17, 1870 in Clarion County,
Pennsylvania. He was the son of 4. James Say and 5. Mary Reed. He
married 3. Elsie Chesney.
3. Elsie Chesney, born Abt. 1787 in Pennsylvania; died July 02,
1865 in Nickleville, Venango County, Pennsylvania.
Notes for James Reed Say, Sr.:
James moved with his family to Westmoreland County in the early 1790's. About
1800, the three brothers, David, John, and James, settled not far from Emlenton
in Venango County.
The 1830, 1840, 1850, 1860, and 1870 U.S. Pennsylvania census records James
living in Richland Township, Venango County, near the George Bell family and
John Bell families. The 1860 census lists James is listed as age 78, a farmer,
with $600 in real estate and $100 in personal property. Eliza Slowenbaough, age
21, is residing with them, listed as housekeeper. The 1870 census lists James as
age 92, living with Christian and Sarah Say.
More About James Reed Say, Sr.:
Burial: Unknown, Nickleville Cemetery, Nickleville, Venango County,
Pennsylvania
Notes for Elsie Chesney:
There are conflicting accounts as to James Say's wife's maiden name.
I believe her to be Elsie Chesney. Other researchers think her to be
Elsie Criswell. I believe that Elsie Chesney, who first married Elisha
Criswell, had a son Robert, then married James Say. Robert Criswell is
found to be neighbor of James and Elsie in the 1850 census. To
complicate things, Robert married Mary (Polly) Say (who died in 1843--he
then married Harriet). Robert named his oldest daughter Elsy Jane.
Children of James Say and Elsie Chesney are:
i. Asa Say, died Unknown.
ii. Elsie Say, died Unknown; married Samuel Van Dyke; died Unknown.
iii. Isabel Say, died Unknown; married John Dunbar; died Unknown.
iv. David Say, born 1807 in Pennsylvania; died 1882; married Esther;
born 1805 in Pennsylvania; died 1883.
More About David Say:
Burial: Unknown, Nickleville Cemetery, Nickleville, Venango County,
Pennsylvania
More About Esther:
Burial: Unknown, Nickleville Cemetery, Nickleville, Venango County,
Pennsylvania
v. James Say, Jr., born October 10, 1812 in Pennsylvania; died February
19, 1872 in Pennsylvania; married Susan 1841; born Abt. 1822 in
Pennsylvania; died Unknown in Pennsylvania.
Notes for James Say, Jr.:
The 1860 Pennsylvania census records James as residing in Richland
Township, Venango County, near the George Bell family. James is recorded
as 47 years old with $2000 in real estate and $200 in personal property.
More About James Say, Jr.:
Burial: Unknown, Nickleville Cemetery, Nickleville, Venango County,
Pennsylvania
More About Susan:
Burial: Unknown, Nickleville Cemetery, Nickleville, Venango County,
Pennsylvania
More About James Say and Susan:
Marriage: 1841
vi. Mary Say, born 1816; died Unknown; married Robert Criswell; born
May 06, 1813; died March 1897.
1 vii. Elizabeth Say, born August 27, 1816 in Pennsylvania; died
October 18, 1853 in Richland Township, Venango County, Pennsylvania;
married George Bell September 27, 1838.
viii. Rosanna Say, born 1820; died Unknown; married (1) John Barnett
Bell; died Unknown; married (2) Sam Alden; died Unknown.
ix. John Reed Say, born 1822 in Pennsylvania; died 1872; married Ellen
Heilman; born 1827 in Pennsylvania; died Unknown.
Notes for John Reed Say:
The 1860 Pennsylvania census records John as living in Richland
Township, Venango County, near the George Bell family. John is listed as a
carpenter, with $1000 in real estate and $150 in personal property.
x. William Say, born Abt. 1823 in Pennsylvania; died Unknown; married
Jamine; born Abt. 1822 in Pennsylvania; died Unknown.
Notes for William Say:
The 1860 census records William as residing in Richland Township,
Venango County, near the George Bell family. The census lists William as a
blacksmith with $1000 in real estate and $150 in personal property.
xi. Sarah Say, born August 05, 1829 in Clarion County, Pennsylvania;
died September 13, 1912 in Thayer, Kansas; married David Cribbs December
27, 1849; born April 16, 1827; died December 23, 1862.
Notes for Sarah Say:
Sarah, the youngest of 14 Say children, lived in a log house not far
from her father. She had 7 children. Her oldest was 12 years old and the
youngest was 3 months when her husband was mortally wounded in the battle
of Fredericksburg during the Civil War. She presented a petition to the
Orphans Court. She kept the oldest son James and the youngest John Charles
on the farm. Sarah and Jane and the two older girls were placed in an
orphan asylum. Leslie went to live with Peter Cribbs Fair in Indiana
County and William and Olive, not quite 3 years old, were taken into the
home of G. H. Cribbs, a double cousin of their father who never had any
children of his own. William made his own way in life after a few years
but Olive remained until her marriage to Samuel Altman 1878. After which
she went to Jewell County, Kansas. Sarah herself came to Kansas in 1886.
She lived several years with her daughter, Olive, but eventually made her
home with her youngest son, John Charles, who never had any children. They
lived more than 10 years at Lodgepole, Nebraska, and about the same time
in Thayer, Kansas, where she is buried.
Notes for David Cribbs:
David was a soldier in the Civil War and died after the Battle of
Fredericksburg.
More About David Cribbs and Sarah Say:
Marriage: December 27, 1849
Generation No. 3
4. James Say, born 1742 in Mifflin, Pennsylvania; died 1810 in
Butler, Pennsylvania. He was the son of 8. James Say and 9. Sarah
Stockwell. He married 5. Mary Reed August 26, 1766 in Cumberland
County, Pennsylvania.
5. Mary Reed, born Abt. 1746 in Mifflin, Pennsylvania2;
died 1822 in Scrubgrass Twp, Pennsylvania.
Notes for James Say:
The Census of 1790 finds James in Huntingdon County. James did own land in
the Carlisle area (East Pennsbury, Cumberland County) near Greensburg,
Westmoreland County and then moved to Butler County. Some of the older Say
descendants in the early 1900's remembered the Say Farm beside the Bell farm
near North Washington, Butler County. Later, James Say moved to Venango County,
according to the old Venango County history in 1795. This would be the
Scrubgrass Township area. He must have been one of, if not the first settler in
the Scrubgrass Township. (1)
James served as a Corporal in the Pennsylvania State Regiment of Artillery
(January 10, 1777) during the Revolutionary War. He was also listed in the
account of 5th, 6th, and 7th classes of the 8th battalion of Cumberland County
Militia, called upon to perform a tour duty by an order of council August 1,
1780. James belonged to the 6th company.
(1) from "John Bell of Nickleville, PA" by Kathryn Bell Reighard
and Edward B. Reighard
More About James Say:
Burial: Unknown, Old Stone Church Cemetery, Scrubgrass, Emlenton, Venango
County, Pennsylvania
More About Mary Reed:
Burial: Unknown, Old Stone Church Cemetery, Scrubgrass, Emlenton, Venango
County, Pennsylvania
More About James Say and Mary Reed:
Marriage: August 26, 1766, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania
Children of James Say and Mary Reed are:
i. David Say, born January 03, 1771 in Kishicoquillas Valley, Mifflin
County, Pennsylvania; died 1844; married Margaret McMahon; born January
08, 1782; died March 31, 1852.
Notes for David Say:
It is believed that David left Mifflin County for Westmoreland County
in 1791. He later removed to Westmoreland County, and then with a party
organized by Scott, moved on to Venango County in 1795. The first season
he cleared several acres of land and sowed wheat. The following spring he
brought out his family, carrying his oldest son on his back, while an ox
carried the household effects. Unfortunately, the ox was not entirely
sure-footed and fell, breaking some of the dishes, upon which Mrs. Say is
said to have sat down and cried. (1)
(1) from "The History of Venango County"
More About Margaret McMahon:
Burial: Unknown, Old Stone Church Cemetery, Scrubgrass, Emlenton,
Venango County, Pennsylvania
ii. Sarah Say, born Abt. 1772; died Unknown; married David McKisson
1798; born 1780; died July 19, 1844.
More About David McKisson and Sarah Say:
Marriage: 1798
iii. Christina Say, born Abt. 1774; died Unknown; married Joseph
Martin; died Unknown.
iv. Rosanna Say, born 1778; died May 29, 1861; married Daniel Levier
1795; born March 23, 1766 in France; died March 15, 1844.
More About Daniel Levier and Rosanna Say:
Marriage: 1795
2 v. James Reed Say, Sr., born 1780 in Kishocoquillas Valley,
Cumberland/Mifflin County, Pennsylvania; died June 17, 1870 in Clarion
County, Pennsylvania; married Elsie Chesney.
vi. John Say, born 1785; died November 14, 1859; married Sarah Martin;
born 1792; died April 04, 1864.
More About Sarah Martin:
Burial: Unknown, Fletcher Cemetery, Bruin, Pennsylania
Generation No. 4
8. James Say, born Bet. 1700 - 1720 in Berkshire, England; died
Unknown in Carlisle, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. He married 9. Sarah
Stockwell.
9. Sarah Stockwell, died Unknown.
Notes for James Say:
It is thought (based on oral family history), that James Say descended from
Lord Say of England. Unfortunately, there is a gap of several generations from
James to the Lord Say line in England, that thus far has not been bridged. In
the 1900's several of James' descendants (among those being William Bell), hired
a variety of attorneys, both in England and the U.S., to prove this connection.
Their primary motivation was to prove their claim to a fortune left by Lord Say.
One of the last attorneys contacted was Merritt Davis of Clarion, who agreed to
go to England on a percentage basis. It appears that the descendants never made
final plans with Davis. After about 70 years, they finally gave up by reasoning
that the German bombers during World War II had probably destroyed any Say
Estate that may have been in England.
The Say line in England records Richard Fiennes, who became Baron Say and Sele, had a son William
Fiennes, born May 28, 1592 and died April 14, 1662
(William was probably Richard's eldest son). In 1613, when William was 21 years
old, he took a seat in the House of Lords, making him Lord Say. In 1624, when
William was 32 years old, Buckingham (of the Government of England) made him
First Viscount Saye and Sele. This title was above a baron and below an earl. In
1632, when he was 40 years old, he, along with 10 other men, obtained a deed to
a large tract of land along the Connecticut River, issued from Lord Warwick and
the New England Company. In 1659, three years before he died, Lord Say made his
will, naming his children. They were Nathaniel Fiennes, John Fiennes, Richard
Fiennes, and James Fiennes (named as Executor). This will was filed November 19,
1662 after his death in the Court of Canterbury. There is some evidence that his
son, Richard Fiennes may also have become a Lord Say. It is not without
probability that other descendants could have also become Lord Says.
There is then a 128 year gap between the Lord Say born in 1592 and our
ancestor, James Say, born around 1620. More research is needed to substantiate a
connection.
James Say, born in 1720, and his brother, Richard, came to America prior to
1734. In 1746, James got a land grant apparently in the present day Carlisle
area of Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.
It is thought that Esther Day, wife of John Harris, founder of Harrisburg,
Pennsylvania, is the sister of James and Richard.(1)
(1)All of the information on the Say family is taken from "John Bell of
Nickleville, PA" by Kathryn Bell Reighard and David B. Reighard.
Children of James Say and Sarah Stockwell are:
4 i. James Say, born 1742 in Mifflin, Pennsylvania; died 1810 in
Butler, Pennsylvania; married Mary Reed August 26, 1766 in Cumberland
County, Pennsylvania.
ii. John Say, died Unknown.
iii. David Say, died Unknown.
iv. Joseph Say, died Unknown.
Endnotes
1. 1920 U.S. Census, Pennsylvania, Venango County, Cranberry Twp..
2. ancestry.com.
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